Believe me, Ive tried. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. My jaw dropped open when I read the first paragraph of your post. God can do that. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. I was open. Editors Note: The list is not meant to be exhaustive and will be updated periodically. Roger Olson 23. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. This is as it should be, imo. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. @ JeffB: Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. Im glad I know that now. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. This is as it should be, imo. Neither is TULIP. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. I know. We really, really need it. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). But are *we* the measure of truth? Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. How wonderful to remember those days! more of an approach to others than a nuance of their own philosophy. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. That is biblical. Ever. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. @ Daisy: * Okay, end of sermon. Yes, God loves you. Ive been lurking through out this discussion. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. As you know, it was not written by Calvin. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. Here is my point as a non-theology major. Wow. I find that to be an amazing God thing. It contains a list of 16 "behaviors" to look for when seeking to smoke out Calvinistic pastors. (an extremely brief synopsis:) We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? , @ Hester: Likewise, Hester, likewise! For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. We can learn to receive it all. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. @ Julie Anne: And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. But I think you have said that you have never read The Institutes. Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. The 10 Best Non Calvinist Systematic Theology of 2022 Before making a purchase decision, we strongly recommend reading through the features of each Non Calvinist Systematic Theology and picking one that will work best for you. @ Argo: I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. God forbid. This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. But are *we* the measure of truth? I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. You can only use Bible verses." This is what some people have heard their entire life. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. Accept that Calvinists findpeace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. God has chosen THEM as the sole recipients of His TRUTH. But something has changed in the last number of years. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. God, help us to love. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. If it does, then Im find with that. I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. Apollos! discussions. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. Not really thinking things though. Righteousness: Imputed? I can't get thereeither on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried). held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Hes already won me to his side. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. And with a similar base assumption as Islam would resemble Islam as time goes on and Entropy sets in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. The theology is weak. Can they wrestle with it on their own? They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. I have to admit-this made me giggle. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. I found an interweb site a while back that had a downloadable version of Calvins Pentateuch (as I call it, by analogy rather than because it contains five of anything in particular). Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. I think so, but Im not quite sure what youre asking. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. We pulled no punches, but I believe we came away with a greater respect for each other and, dare I say, love. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. How to Resign from a Church I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. First list Randy Alcorn Thabiti Anyabwile Tom Ascol Voddie Baucham Joel Beeke Alistair Begg Jon Bloom Loraine Boettner James Pettigru Boyse John Calvin (of course) D.A. . Even though I rejected Calvinism, I was not (nor have I ever been) a universalist, I still believed in Gods sovereignty, etc. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. After all, you could be wrong. I will post about this. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. It feels good to be in a healthy spiritual state again. The need to defend comes when a closely held belief is blamed for atrocities. Charles . Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. Dee, your post brought back child hood memories of Boston. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. @dee, Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. As I have stated, I do try to be sensitive and let people vent. Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world.. I have not had that experience. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. (LogOut/ Many Christian Protestant denominations trace their roots to John Calvin and the reformation movement. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. It bothered me a whole lot (and she and I talked about it via email), but it also crystallized some things for me. Jesus wept. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. Last year when I was sued, I had heard of Calvinism, but didnt really know what and how it had affected/influenced me personally. I have gone through some crisis of the faith in which I was unsure of what I understoodbut I never, ever stopped believing in Jesus. Should the conversation be halted? And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. I might get around to it, at some point. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. This is what some people have heard their entire life. He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. When there is someone who has been really, REALLY busted up by a Calvinist, I completely get where the anger comes from. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. I spent quite a while in these neo-Calvinist, Piper, hipster fundamentalist, etc. Carson Tim Challies Francis Chan (commonly referred to as "Calvinist Light") Matt Chandler Vincent Cheung Ray Comfort Tim Conway Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Mark Driscoll Ligon Duncan Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons.